Helping Measurements

As you know, I have struggled with getting the right fit in a sleeved garment. I struggle with getting a balance between adequate back width to enable comfort and movement and excessive width causing unsightly folds and wrinkles. I decided to use Minott’s book to assist me in evaluating my PMB blouse pattern.
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She takes a few different measurements than PMB, including the chest and blade width… so I had to mark my body and take those measurements. Using an eyeliner pencil, I marked the placement of a shoulder seam on top of my bare shoulder so that, when seen from the side, it is dividing my upper arm into front and back halves.
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Then I located the end of the shoulder bone, so that I had a + marked on the shoulder skin. With a necklace on, I could measure from neck to one line of the + mark to verify my shoulder length measurement, and use the other line to divide front and back.
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With arms to my side, I put a small ‘V’ on my skin at the top of the crease that forms between body and arm. I did this on both sides of my body, left and right, front and back.
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Then, with my hands clasped and lowered in front, DH measured across the back of my body BETWEEN the points of these ‘V’ marks to give me my BLADE measurement (16.75”). Then I clasped and lowered my hands in back and he measured across my chest, again between these ‘V’ marks (14.5”). [Interesting note: Clasping the hands (as opposed to allowing them to hang at the sides) increases these measurements (on me) by 1”.]
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Then we measured from the SHOULDER POINT line down in back to the point of the V (5”), and from SHP down in front to the point of the V (4.25”). This gave me the distance DOWN from the pattern’s shoulder to which I would apply the chest and blade measurements. In front, using a 15” FRONT SHOULDER WIDTH measurement gives me the needed 14.5” chest width across the pattern at the 4.25” level. This is without changing the ah notch placement up or down. I have decided that leaving the AH notch at the ZERO height position might be best for me.
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In back, I increased my measured BSW to 16.75” which gives me *almost* enough blade width at the correct level (5” down). This pattern is actually about 1/8” short of being wide enough there…even though I did 2 clicks outward on the AH SHAPE TOOL. I am considering changing that BSW measurement to 17 so that I will have the full 16.75 inches at the 5” level. I fear that doing to many outward clicks will give me an ah shape that is too odd. PLUS, Minott recommends a back shoulder dart of .75” wide for the average body….my own bk sh dart is slightly less than that now, but would grow to .75” wide if I increased the BSW to 17. PLUS-PLUS, I do have one prominent shoulder blade that would probably benefit from this larger bk sh dart, I suspect.
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In back, I increased my measured BSW to 16.75” which gives me *almost* enough blade width at the correct level (5” down). This pattern is actually about 1/8” short of being wide enough there…even though I did 2 clicks outward on the AH SHAPE TOOL. I am considering changing that BSW measurement to 17 so that I will have the full 16.75 inches at the 5” level. I fear that doing to many outward clicks will give me an ah shape that is too odd. But who can believe I would need to use a 17” back shoulder width? That is just so large for my height! I mean, I know I have wide shoulders…but that seems insane! That is an inch longer than my CENTER BACK LENGTH…and ‘average’ is to have these measurements be very similar. Also, my front shoulder width is not nearly that wide! This just seems so ‘off’…but I must keep an open mind! However, for now, I think just doing ONE MORE CLICK outward on the B-Armhole Shape tool will be enough.
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But here’s the rub: I have decided to lower my SLEEVE CAP HEIGHT again! I have been using (-.5) but I have decided to use (-.75) to get a wider sleeve. This will also provide more room for movement, so I am unsure if I actually need BOTH of these adjustments!
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Another measurement Minott takes is the BACK SHOULDER HEIGHT. Basically, she has you measure from the CB neck to floor, and from the back shoulder to floor and find the difference between these heights. This determines the difference between the CB/neck (before lowering) and the back SHP on the back pattern. PMB does take a BACK SHOULDER SLOPE measurement, which is diagonal from CB waist to shoulder…but measuring straight up from floor leaves no doubt where the starting and ending points are! My own back shoulder height is only 5/8” shorter than my Center Back height…because my shoulders are ‘square’.
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Minott measures Front and Back ARMHOLE DEPTHS separately by placing a plastic ruler under the arm, holding it perfectly level, and measuring from the + mark at the shoulder down the front of the upper arm and down the back…just like I did when I measured to the ‘V’ marks at the top of the armhole creases…but she is going all the way to the ruler in both front and back. This is an eye-opening measurement for me!!! My FRONT AH measured taller than my back! F=7.375, B=6.25 I am now wondering what I have that is ‘wrong’…or maybe, that is OK? Hmmm….
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ETA: Back AH actually measured 7" when remeasured the next day!
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From the SHP on the pattern, depth of the back AH DEPTH should be 1.25” more than measured. For me, 6.25 + 1.25 = 7.5…but my B armhole depth measures 7.99”. This ah depth doesn’t feel too low so I think I will try this, assuming the extra is ease for a blouse, as opposed to a sloper ah.
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Minott’s front ah depth is adjusted for cup size…but I am going to use the B-cup instructions, because that uses the AH measurement ‘as is’. My body’s F-AH measured 7.375”…but my pattern’s F-ah only measures 6.5”! Oh dear…I need it to be even taller! Well, this certainly explains the binding I sometimes feel in the F-ah! I can use the DART OVERRIDE TOOL, which will lower the F armhole and decrease the size of the bust dart (using a negative tool setting). I have tried to avoid using that tool if possible, but maybe it’s *necessary* for me. Hmmm. I have been getting too much fullness at the tip of the bust darts on many of these latest tops…indicating too large a dart. I guess I will have to explore the D.O. tool a bit more!
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Now that I think about this a bit...I might ought to consider that I am larger than a B cup. Minott subtracts from the measured F-AH height to adjust for cup sizes...1/4" for C-cup, 3/8" for D-cup, and 1/2" for DD-cup. Since I am in the C-D range, I will set 7" as my 'goal' for F-ah height and see what the D.O. tool gives me.

Ladybug top

I recently finished sewing another top, but even before finishing it...it suddenly occurred to me what I might need to do (on the next one!) to get my armholes to be 'right'.


For this top, I sewed the pattern just as drafted in PMB, with no editting in PE...well, except for the facings, which don't match the pattern (arrgh!)...UNTIL my alterations during fitting, that is!

Now, on the last top, Peach#2, I had decided that those diagonal pulls in front meant I had to increase the front length. Well, I tried that and it was NOT good. I did NOT need the extra front length. I finally realized that what was causing the diagonal pulls was inadequate waist and hip ease at the sideseams…so I altered to sew the SS a bit smaller to provide some ease there at the waist/hip area. For some reason, I had drafted with 1” less hip ease than usual (trying to control the size of the waist darts, I suspect, as I had also used less waist ease which produces bigger waist darts).









I also tried lengthening the shoulder slope measurements, thinking UP was the only way to go (as mentioned in my last blog post). Well, UP was NOT the way to go! I got linebacker shoulders, with lots of room for pads! Trying to be thorough, though, I did go ahead and set in a sleeve, just to see what happens. It looked awful…that is what happened. The sleeve pushed all this excess fabric downward. So I restored the shoulders to their proper height and tried various alterations to the sleeve pattern to improve the pitch…still, the sleeves were bad. The armhole is not right yet.

In my research, I ran across something that made a light bulb light up over my head, and I *think* I will do better next time…well, not next time, as that one is already underway and nearly finished! But the NEXT 'next time'! :)

Here is a clue: Look at the front armhole depth compared to the back armhole. The back armhole is as high as I can get it…touching skin. But the front is lower…there is room to come up.

Now, you may remember, I have been TRYING to get that front armhole ‘scooped’ to provide adequate ease in the armhole for forward reaching…that was my goal, and I accomplished that by reducing the BUST CUP size I was using to draft with.

To illustrate, I put on this Ladybug top over the Peach#2 top, to show how the F-armholes compare. The Bcup (Ladybug) scoops the front ah a bit lower than the Ccup (Peach#2). And actually, I am now wondering if I might prefer the Ccup!

But when the ‘light bulb’ lit up, things just began to make sense. It seemed like this ‘solution’ would solve ALL my armhole and sleeve issues…and it is such an easy fix! Of course, I can’t tell you what it is until I test it…

Peach Eyelet #2

Here is the second of the two tops I have recently sewn…Peach #2.

Yes, it is the exact same fabric as the first one…same buttons, too! I decided to use up the remaining fabric, and if this was the more comfortable top, I would donate the first one. Yep, that is what will happen, as this one is WAY better! Not perfect, but better.





























The first top used a D-cup to draft…for this one, I used a C-cup (and lengthened the CFL/FSS measurements to compensate for the reduced cup size). This makes the waistline of the red sloper-overlay even MORE scooped upward!



















The garment is still showing some strain over my prominent shoulder blades…especially the left one.

I think I want a tiny bit more width across the back between the arm creases…I KNOW I want the shoulder points (both front and back) to be located a little farther outward next time.

These are easy fixes…increase the shoulder width measurements!


















I thought the first top could use another half to three-quarters of an inch all the way down the pattern…so I manipulated measurements and settings to give me that, while only minimally changing the front pattern.







This makes Peach #2 much more comfortable to wear than #1. I got compliments on #1 when I wore it, even though it felt tight to me. When I wore #2, no one could see the fitting flaws that I mentioned. It is the way these garments FEEL that is key here, not so much how they look. And the comfort level is not quite ‘there’ yet…but it’s getting closer.


When my arms are forward, there is strain across the back, yet there is all this excess fabric in front over the bust. The front armhole cuts into my arm…but as you can see, I can’t really make the front any narrower across the high bust area…THAT is NOT the answer!


I need a longer front armhole, but I cannot ‘scoop’ it inward.


The only way to go is UP!

Ok, maybe I look like I am trying to do ballet...and failing miserably! But no, the point is to show the excess fabric over the bust that accompanies the strain across the back with forward arm movement. The overall bust ease/circumference is ok, but it needs to be forced to stay where it belongs!

I DID put a sleeve in this, temporarily. I wanted to test the armhole with a sleeve, just as I had done on the first top.



Let’s just say, I will NOT be BRINGING SEXY BACK with this one!!!



Look at the star-burst effect of pulls around the bust with the sleeve in (you don’t get that without the sleeve).



Once again, I would consider this sleeve a failure!
But once again, it is the armhole that is at fault.


Look at the side view:



See how the front hem is so much higher than the back hem? And how the back of the sleeve lays against my arm, yet the front hangs free? This sleeve is telling me to change the armholes. I think I hear it saying it wants the front armhole to be longer/taller! This jives with what the front armhole is saying when I put my arms forward…it digs into my arm, saying, “Make me longer!”




As mentioned before, I always have to manually scoop the F-AH to get the right shape. I just haven’t been able to ‘force’ the program to give me a good F-AH.

Of course, I’ve been trying to make the F-AH longer by scooping the lower part…but I am now seeing that the only way to go is UP! To make the F-ah longer, I must add at its upper end…the shoulder end.






There are STILL some drag lines from the bust, indicating inadequate front length. Really? How can that be? This CFL measurement is only .375” shorter than the CBL measurement, and when I reduce the cup size to B (for my next top) I will be increasing the CFL by .375” to compensate, making them EQUAL!!! Nobody uses EQUAL front and back lengths!!! But this shirt is telling me that I must make my CFL even LONGER than the CBL, to eliminate those drag lines! Really?



But think about it…

The front armhole is saying, “Make me longer/taller so I won’t cut in.”

And the sleeve is saying, “Make the F-ah longer/taller so I can hang level.”

And the drag lines are saying, “Make the CFL longer so I can hang level.”


So for the NEXT ONE, I will make the front even longer! For the next one, using a Bcup, the CFL will be longer than the CBL! That is crazy…and I can’t wait to see how it works out!

The Problem with PMB

I wanted to answer some questions and comments regarding this recent bout of tweaking I've been doing.

Plus, I will be busy with house guests this weekend, so posting will be delayed...that is, I haven't had time to create all the visual aids to go with this new 'break-through' in fit! But since some of you are really anxious to know about it NOW, I will do the best I can with just words...pictures and more will follow!


>>>I'm not sure about what 'mirroring' the front and back means <<<

When the bust dart is placed in the shoulder position, the front and back sideseams have the same (but opposite) relationship to the vertical grainline. One angles \ and one / but the angle to vertical is the same...you don't have ( with / or anything crazy like that. When placed side by side, they are mirror images of each other.


I mentioned the "levelness of the waist" on the red overlay...aka, the dress sloper...but want to make it clear--

• It is not the LEVEL of the waist...and not the height...when on your body, but the fact that the sloper (pattern)'s waist line is nearly 'level' on screen....horizontal...as opposed to being 'low' in the center and 'scooped upward' on the side. I am NOT talking about the levelness of that waist seam on the fitting garment when on the body...just the pattern shape.
• I know that 'level waist on the sloper' is the goal of WG's fit/tweak suggestions, but that is what I am saying is ruining the fit of the armholes and sleeves!
  

To make the sloper pattern's waist 'level', many of us have increased the cup size we were drafting with.

Bad.

I did it, too, and now have some guilt over echoing the recommendation! I was trying to be a good team player (and we all see where THAT got me! :))...but I have since figured out that using larger cup sizes is exactly the WRONG thing to do!!!


>>>The top of the back fits fine since I reduce the back width, but as it goes under the arm is where the issues lie.<<<

And where it goes under the arm is the part controlled by the front/back bust-width distribution! There is no getting around this...cup size is the key!

>>>I need more darting in the back waist area than in the front.<<<

Me, too. You don't sound all that oddly-shaped to me! The problem is the F-B distribution of bust width AT underarm level. Once you get that equalized, you will be better off. And if your body needs MORE width in back at bum level than in front, well, then maybe you should give your back pattern MORE WIDTH at underarm level than in front, too! It is just that simple. Forget about whether or not the waist of your red overlay is 'level' or 'straight' across...let it scoop as high as it wants!...it is just a pattern! and it is NOT the pattern you will be sewing! Just get the F-B distribution the way you need it for your body, and everything else will take care of itself!

>>>You've told me what needs to be done - how do I do it?<<<

In a nutshell, if you want to go ahead and 'test' this theory with me, here is what to do:

• Save your current best chart with a new name, like 'B-cup Trish'.
• Reduce your cup size until your F & B patterns are equal in width at underarm level...using (-.5) Side/Arm placement (important)...probably need to use a B-cup.
• You'll have to increase your CFL and FSS a lot to make up the front length difference. It takes MORE than just .375" per cup size lost! Don't be alarmed if the CFL grows to be the same number as the CBL! The FSS will be about 1" or maybe 1.25" longer than the back one...
• Compare these new patterns to what you have now, to be sure the front length on the new pattern is as long as it is now (on the pattern made with your big-bust-cup chart). Adjust measurements until the new patterns are as tall (from shoulder to waist) as the old patterns.
• Increase the BP-vertical to put the bust in the right place (it will be higher with the B cup).
• REset AH shape tool to zeros...don't reshape for this test.
  

You will notice that your F-ah will be lower and more scooped in this B-cup pattern...this is a good thing! The back armhole will also be better, I bet! And if you compare the sleeves of this new one to the old one, you will also see a difference.

Ok, so now that you have tweaked the measurement chart to equalized the F&B pattern widths at underarm level, NOW you choose your drafting choices:

• Use S/Arm position of (-1)...this makes the BACK pattern WIDER than the front at underarm level.
• Use S/Hip position of (-5)...this makes the BACK pattern WIDER than the front at hip level...good, since most of us have a larger bum in back!
• Use S/Waist of zero to start with, since the forward S/H point will make the back waist darts larger than the front ones. This can be tweaked at fitting.
• Use 2.5" to 3" bust ease and 3-4" hip ease...whatever you'd normally use. I use 1" waist ease.
  

Print and sew!

Don't worry that your red overlay looks crazy! Mine shows only a tiny sliver of a bust dart, with a VERY upscooped side/waist.

Like many of you, I wear a D cup bra and was using an E-cup setting to get enough dart size. But I have already sewn/tested this at C-cup, and and got marked improvement! (Pictures to follow...what can I say, I am slow!)

I have already drafted and compared and determined the settings to use for the B cup one...just haven't had time to blog about it or sew the B cup one yet! But as I said, weekend company will delay the sewing a bit longer...but if you wish to test along with me, have at it!

And let me know how this works for you!

Peach Eyelet #1

Last week, while suffering with a head-cold/bronchitis, I began tweaking measurements in PMB, to see how things changed. I found that without changing cup size, I could affect the size of the bust dart by just reducing the Bust Measurement.

For example, a 39D-cup produced a larger bust dart than a 41D-cup.

Hmmmm.........

So I decided I would reduce my BU measurement and use more EASE and see what happens.

But of course, I couldn’t leave it at that…I had to make other changes, too!

As you know, I have ‘issues’ with the front armhole in PMB.

• I always have to manually scoop the F-AH to get the right shape. I just haven’t been able to ‘force’ the program to give me a good AH.
• Plus, the sleeves are never ‘just right’….the front of the sleeve hangs free of the arm, but the back of the sleeve tends to lay close to the back of my arm…this is a clue to me that something is wrong with the armhole shapes and sizes, but I just haven’t been able to figure it out (until now!).

So I thought, what the heck…I’ll reduce my cup size, too, and see how THAT affects the armholes.

• I do know that reducing the cup size DOES scoop the F-ah a little.
• PLUS, it changes the FRONT to BACK distribution of the patterns at underarm level…the larger the cup size, the narrower the back width at underarm level.
• PLUS, the larger the cup size, the larger the bust dart.
• PLUS, the larger the cup size, the longer the front length on the pattern. This meant that if I reduced my cup size, I would have to increase the Center Front Length and Front Shoulder Slope, to make up the difference in what the reduced cup size would eliminate. In PMB, each cup size makes a difference of .375” in front length. So, going down one cup letter meant going UP 0.375” on my CFL and FSS.
  

But along with this reduced cup size comes another change...not to the blouse pattern that I will be sewing, but to the RED OVERLAY (aka the dress sloper) that PMB drafts with my measurements, upon which the patterns are based. I have been trying to follow the advice of the company…and that advice is to INCREASE THE CUP SIZE in order to LEVEL THE WAIST OF THE SLOPER.

This is the way my previous patterns looked, with my previous measurement chart (which uses an E cup), before I began this recent tweaking:





Look at where the ARROW is pointing….to the amount the Side/Waist is ‘raised’ above the level of the CF waist. The S/W point on my red sloper is .9” higher than the level of the CF…already a bit higher than recommended.




But look at what happens to the sloper’s waist when I REDUCE THE CUP SIZE from (E to D):







Now, after reducing the cup size, the sloper’s waist is even MORE unlevel…the S/W point is now 1.75” above the level of the CFL!





If I were listening to the fitting advice being given, I would immediately reverse this, and increase the cup size to level that waist.

But “been-there, done-that” (and it didn’t work). So now I am going the other way.

What the heck…it is a test garment!


So I created this new measurement chart and set about drafting my patterns.

Because the reduced cup size changed the width distribution at underarm level on the F & B patterns, this meant I needed to use different settings for Side/Hip placement than before in order to keep my sideseams as mirror images.

I found that I didn’t have to move the S/H point backward as far as before (since the new back underarm point was now more forward) so I used the (+.25) setting.

This also meant I no longer had to use an extra 2” of hip ease and remove it at the front waist darts, as mentioned here.

So I used:

Side/Arm Point: -1
Side/Waist Point: +1
Side/Hip Point: +.25


The Side/Arm Point in PMB will not go any farther forward than -1.

I always use that (-1) setting, to try to widen the back pattern at underarm level as much as possible, although I always WISH I could make it even wider.

Since that S/A point is sort of ‘fixed’ (maxed out), to get mirrored sideseams the HIP must be balanced to that point (wherever it is) by moving the S/H forward or backward.

Here you can see the sideseam relationship of my new pattern.


I didn’t sew it with a shoulder dart…but it is necessary to put the dart ABOVE the armhole to evaluate the sideseams! The actual garment has a side/bust dart.




Ok, so here is the pattern I sewed.

As you can see, I manually scooped the F-ah as described previously. But that was the only change I made…the rest of the pattern was used as it drafted.














And here is the blouse. The sewing isn't my best work...it is hard to do a good job when you are sick (well, for me, anyway)! At first glance, it isn’t too bad (if you don’t count the way the bust dart puckers at the tip!).

But it is too tight.

The back needs more ease to be comfortable. There is no room for my ‘wings’ to spread when my arms move and no breathing room when I sit. Well, it is wearable, but I am ‘aware’ of the tightness all day.

The Bust Point/Level is too high on this one, and the overall front length is still a bit skimpy...too short (I took care of that on the next one though!).


I have reached the point of having made my shoulders TOO NARROW. I have been gradually reducing the shoulder width measurements on each garment I make...and I should have stopped already!


Combined with this close fit, it is apparent that the shoulder width measurements are much too narrow for my body. For a sleeveless blouse, they are ok, but this blouse was designed to have sleeves!

Because these shoulders were so narrow and the bust/back a bit snug, I decided to NOT use the sleeves, and make this top sleeveless instead...much more forgiving!

I DID sew the sleeves in, though, and evaluate the fit before ripping them out...so I know how this would fit if I DID use them.

And the fit would NOT be good.


This blouse is ‘wearable’ and I did learn a few things by sewing it, but this is NOT the measurement chart that I will continue to use in the future!!!



I learned that using the 39" bust (when I really measure 41") was NOT the way to get a larger dart, even though I used more bust ease. The point of this was the larger dart size...but that is so variable, and can be affected by Side/Waist placement and ease and other things, so I am going to restore my BU size for the next one.


Reducing my cup size from E-cup to D-cup WAS a good thing…the waist on my sloper will just have to continue to be 'unlevel', I guess, because the smaller cup size seems better!


The angle of the sideseam above the bust is better now, but as you can see in the side view above, it looks like it could even angle a little MORE toward the front above the bust dart…next time.

With the new cup size comes a new armhole-- BETTER, but still, my sleeves weren’t ‘just right’. But I’ll have to reevaluate that once I widen the shoulder widths and increase the bust ease.





As you can see in these pictures, I STILL have plenty of ease on the sides under the arms, yet the blouse is constricting across the back with arm movement.

This top could use another 0.5 to 0.75 inch width all the way down the back sideseam, from shoulder to hip/hem, without changing the front.

So after making this one, I tweaked measurements and settings and compared patterns and created yet another NEW CHART that will give me that!

And that was the second top I sewed recently….stay tuned!

Mirrored sideseams

On the Patternmasterusers chat list on Yahoo, we've been discussing these undesireable wrinkles that frequently occur just behind and below the back armhole of PMB garments, especially on Princess styles. I mentioned that, on my patterns, the Princess style creates a 'gap' between the front and side front patterns at bust level and that this loss of bust width is compensated for by increasing the width of the back pattern at underarm. But this changes the shape of the back sideseam...I've talked about sideseams before.

But hours later, I'm still thinking about those wrinkles of fabric at the side/back armhole area. So I opened PMB and drafted and compared a few patterns...not even Princess ones, but just the basic Torso. I used my own measurement chart with ZERO ease at bust, waist and hip. I set the SS position to ZERO at bust, waist and hip. Below, you can see what I would get.

If I aligned the back to the front at the underarm points, you can see that the back pattern extends lower at the hem than the front pattern. But think of it (and look at it) this way: When I align the front and back at the hems, you can see that the back armhole level is HIGHER than the front armhole level. And this is because the sideseams are NOT mirror images.

























Now, I can imagine that because this back armhole is higher than the front armhole, once the sideseams are sewn and the sleeve is sewn in, it is likely that this higher back armhole will be 'forced' downward on the body, creating folds. The balance of the patterns is off.

With the sideseam positions set at ZERO as above, the HEIGHT of the back armhole is 8.471".
The HEIGHT of the front armhole is 7.743" (as measured straight up).




But look at what happens if the SS tools are used to 'force' the front and back sideseams to become mirror images: When the Front and Back patterns are aligned at the hem, there is only a tiny difference in the heights of the front and back armholes...and it is the FRONT that is higher, not the back!





To force the sideseams to become mirror images, I used a Side/Arm Position of (-1) and a Side/Hip Position of (+.5). As you can tell by the size of those waist darts, the S/W position is still in the ZERO position, but that setting only affects the size of the waist darts, not the placement of the waist at side seam.

With the sideseam in this position and the front and back sideseams having mirrored shapes, the HEIGHT of the back armhole is now 8.954" and the front armhole is now 7.326" tall.

This means that moving the sideseam as I have had changed the balance of my patterns...I have gained 0.483" in back armhole height, and lost 0.417" of front armhole height!

I am thinking that the taller back armholes combined with the shorter front one is less likely to result in the folds of excess fabric that are fequently seen on PMB garments in back. Not a scientific study or anything...purely conjecture!